welcome to the brain intimacy pack show we are intimacy is real if you desire to intimately connected with yourself and your significant other children and family friends community and your higher power this show is for you. We explore intimate topics inspiring life story beer to Aldi and insightful tips on strengthening relationships this show is hosted by dr. April and her co-host dr. Kelly now let's get this episode of the bringing intimacy back show started because we share with you the secret power to intimacy to create a life you love or love the life you create your host dr. April and co-host dr. Kelly hello and welcome to bring intimacy back where intimacy is real my name is dr. Kelly Boucher and Anna co-host of bringing intimacy back hello to the host dr. April Brown good to see you we are at how are you doing I'm doing well I'm here in Michigan got my Michigan shirt on and I'm trying to stay
warm has trying to stay cool yeah well I just know that you're right now you're working on your recent book installment on improving intimacy with yourself spirit and spouse how's that going that is going good and I will be coming out July 1st and we're looking so forward to that as well so so good to see you again I just love being a part of this with you Doctor April and I look forward to our show today with Leinster Devon and talking about the pursuit of vertical intimacy but as we begin I just want to remind our listeners that this month our charity is the Trevor Project and the Trevor Project support lgbtq + Youth and it helps prevent their suicide and by preventing lgbtq suicide they do this through Crisis Prevention and the Trevor Lifeline so for those of you that want to support that
I really encourage you this is not only is it pride month but this is an opportunity to help the youth in America and those specifically from that population they have a safe and uplifting online community environments and also they have a place called trevorspace so please donate as we have is well so today we're going to invite Len sturdavant into our room and into our podcast and we're so looking forward to hearing what land has to say about vertical intimacy I'm so curious I understand. Yes me a long time to learn the difference between horizontal and vertical
really did it really did so anyway the very first thing that I want to do is I can I can't see Lynn oh there you are when I was me don't let him why we begin we just always ask our guests how do you define intimacy
how do I Define intimacy that is the communication between two people who love each other we're at I am just as concerned about the things that are important to you as you are concerned about the things that are important to me in intimate
so that's that that's that reciprocity that you're talkin about we look forward to digging in a little bit but let me introduce a little bit about you and then you're going to fill in the gaps okay so Lansford mine has a Master's in psychology from NC Central University has a many many hours in his doctoral training as a marriage and family therapist there at Virginia Tech and also does your workshops conferences on relationships and he's held many panel discussions on marriages and divorces in fact he is an advocate towards divorce interventions and we look forward to hearing a little bit about what you do as well so you come to us with over a decade experience in marriage and family counseling so as we begin now what is one of the key things in that one of the key things that you tell couples when they first come to you the very first session you're like this is
what I want them to know you know how we all have those the things that we say that first session what's one of your key points that you have to get get in there it depends on what they present with if his Communications do I need to put on a fire is it external influences in the relationship so depending on what they what they present so but the basics theme is for the couple to kind of turn towards each other unless that's eliminate all of the external variables that can impact the relationship that's coming in between you and it would I find with most couples is that they are repeating an unconscious pattern of intergenerational dysfunction that comes down from both sides and they get with each other and they try to replicate that dysfunction
and in doing so it caused this cabinet because but I just have a couple this morning and it one of the things I sent to them once they presented his parents what are things that I need for both of you to leave home
so at one of things always check sibling position is massively important when you're talkin about two people trying to become intimate so it was good I was like was filling positions to be staggered so she ain't first born and he's a middle child that's great thank you so it look problems seem to manifest when is baby baby this is the worst middle middle to first first born first born and the only child's kind of we'll really know what the only child is but once once I see where the Sims position if it's as long as there is no rank conflict or sex conflict is usually the coffee staggered grew up big baller shot caller
bought that energy into the marriage and he wasn't having it now use a middle child but you know all that big Ballin shot call-in he just wasn't having it and so once I help them to realize the role you know you get with somebody who makes you I don't have to change my position so if I get what I'm attracted you because I can play my role so if I'm big baller shot caller woman that let me big baller shot caller that way everything stays as stupid because my brain I'll bring your boyfriend hates change it always comes back to Center regression towards the meat so if it's important to them to know that when when these two couples come together you know the kind of coming out of a measurement basically mobile
sever the ties with family then we can kind of form a new Corporation cuz we're emerging corporations I'm bringing in my Corporation you're bringing your corporation but we don't want the intergenerational dysfunction so we kind of look at how they came through all of this dysfunction and and what are we going to do different because we don't want a repeat the pattern so I look for a position I look for the current problem and usually the current problem is some mix of the past trying to come into the current and so once we in this which is why I do to our sessions with couple free people trying to talk and I swore I said I would never do this all I'm sorry Cinemark 50-minute hour I will pick up here next week
do that ever ever never I had to do it in my internship process and I said I would never do it to a couple so 2 hours and 20% is strange 20% of my couples goat for 2 hours 50 minutes you're sending and then once you hit cruising altitude is where we get the work done up here. You need to take your seat belt off on a plane we're at 10,000 see if you're actually kind of walk around and get this done and that I do you want to get them up here and so we can get the work done and was about half hour if I start The Descent is really smooth and kind of move landing and kind of tie up loose ends and zip everybody up before I let him go so really interesting how couples manifest in this
just looking at how their intimacy is crafted cuz I'm very psychodynamic and I'm very system family systems Orion is so I got this beautiful merger between both systems and so I can see the family I see the past I can see the abstractions with the psychodynamic connections it's just if necessary I got the software and all that stuff so I kind of do the genogram in my head so if I had a feeling that was my mom had a cyst Gets Ready brother and I'm trying to figure out what I'm a child is acting this way I'll kind of stay working for you got this in your background maybe it has something to do with you know if it's in your family and so we can you know what you talked about intergenerational dysfunction I'd like you to dig a little bit deeper in that because I think you're
Leon to something a lot of times people focus on individual like individuals conflict just themselves growing up but not marrying the two together you're merging like you said a corporation so can you define intergenerational trauma for those that may have just missed that at the beginning so that we can delve deeper into this election is usually results in from some type of trauma some type of cycle and or pattern that that that keeps coming down each generation you know so if I come from a family of Alcoholics my great-grandfather was now calling my aunt was growing off of all I have to do several cousins that are alcoholic so all this energy generational dysfunction and alcohol just keeps coming down until somebody decides to fall on his sword and put an end to all this energy generation of dysfunction it could be violence
it could be alcohol there could be molestation the incest all of those dysfunctions that come down that go unaddressed problem with it going on addresses that the Isle of those parents will be will become the Byrd & Barrel of the secrets and the well when she got that from she's never seen me to that you had a auntie that was put in an insane asylum because she had this alcohol problem is that nobody ever talked about so so as you know it's like this secret is encompassed within the intergenerational dysfunction and secrets have to be talked about you
your people safe all the generational curse we just cursed with alcohol or pattern that goes on a dress and the needs aren't met and so it starts to manifest cuz if we don't talk about it as parents are cheetahs inherits that energy and until we talked about it and I have no family in the room of the secret always I've always seen a burn barrel of the secret always gives up a bunch of BS a little too hot for me to handle so and I'll let him go to the intergenerational secrets and Sony open it up and be because everybody's exposed to it you can see it for the first time and it sure does talk about generational
trauma as well and it says that the sins will be visited upon the children but also scripture talks about from a spiritual standpoint that we can overcome these generational curses and you can actually be a part of change in your entire family moving forward from how you handle this and then also how your children observe you handling it it's not to say we won't have conflict right you have to mop to Once once you once you decide to do something about it it is incumbent upon you to to see it all the way through so let's talk about those things and it's usually shrouded in secrecy and families it's only a conspiracy of Silence so this is when when you start address to secrets in the family those things that those that you can't put your hands on it this is this is this is like a a ghost
but that secret is so powerful have so much energy in that secret it is you know you swinging at ghost that you can't hit but I can hit the person in front of me so I'm so the secret kind of goes back and forth and my triggers are going to hit your triggers and go seek is going to come out and that's what those two have to discover what it is you know it you know we we having problems communicating few couples have problems communicating the sender say something they don't want to hear about themselves so what my job is to do is to help you to hear what it is being said about you begin to look into Unisom self-introspection and begin to process of you know cuz you never you never spend time with children you always a way you never participate in the second shift when we come home
come on flop on couch and have a beer and the hours to where are you know I saw my dad do that and you know and Mom fixed everything I said we didn't have education and jobs though so that variable is changed a little bit so I have to get them to participate and second shift matriarchy patriarchy was the rule when he grew up so you know Mom took care of everything and dad bought the money home mom handle bills you give her the check and he kind of swap on
and that really what I have heard from the first part of our time together so far is that vertical intimacy has a lot to do with communication no surprise correct yeah I like to break verbal intimacy down five love languages are perfect example of vertical intimacy is it ever since sex got easier love got harder to find so so how well do we get along on our feet cuz that's where are you at
sex is 20% if if that much of any relationship relationship is going to thrive on 20% so how well do we get along on our see how well do we communicate how well can we establish the reciprocity between us if I come from single-parent home or I never have the prototype in my mind to my father wasn't in the house so you're asking things of me that I've never seen and and I rely on my peer group
for that information right we're going to take a break right now and when we come back we did a little deeper with you and your knowledge in your toolbox there on how brutal and vertical intimacy impacts romantic relationships so here we're going into our very first break and we'll be right back with you are you going to take a vacation in Paradise medication to rekindle the version without the kids a vacation where you can learn how to communicate where you and your partner actually hear each other and game inside if so vacation counseling is your next vacation April Brown who created vacation counseling and Southwest Florida has a perfect option for you and your partner our Retreats are one couple at a time we have a variety of packages available to choose from including virtual Couples Retreat
your partner interested in the vacation counseling please visit us at vacation counseling.com for more information on pricing and packages also follow us on Instagram and Facebook keep track of the latest news stories activities or coupons on vacation counseling and Doctor April's other services we encourage you to sign up to receive a monthly newsletter called intimate connections at dr. April Brown. Calm remember if you and your partner are struggling with communication and intimacy and you are looking for a retreat to connect vacation counseling station in Southwest Florida
welcome back to the bringing intimacy back show my name is actor Kelly and I'm here with the host of The Show dr. April and our guests at Leinster Damonte as we're talking about vertical intimacy so now when we'd like to go a little bit deeper into what can vertical intimacy bring to a romantic relationship
that's 80% of the relationship this is where you're going to spend most of your time developing the relationship and sex is only 20% so in the first office you have to become conscious of the fact that verbal intimacy is a real thing because everybody that means the sex is easy is how well we get along on our feet how well do we make decisions together how well do we plan is there reciprocity in the relationship so when I hear the communication problems one of the things I I tried to look at is the breakdown of why was it
reciprocity a part of the relationship because if I do it for you most people respond in kind I do it for you you do it back for me we have this beautiful rhythm going to the point where I don't even have to tell you that my tiny tires on the car or I I need something done one of the services of vertical intimacy is time touch affirmation gifts and service so those become a currency of reciprocity in and we just go about establishing you know what is what is my love language and so are you have couples to take the love language assessment
and to discover what is it about them that the other one doesn't know what they complete the assessment I have them to switch papers and not they do what the other person likes so if my if my love language is Services I think Services is the hardest one My love language is Services then if it's my wife then I'll go out and buy a set of tires I'll borrow a car one day and God get her tires and get the car cleaned it tuned up and bring it back with the garage you don't have to thank me but upon her noticing that then she's going to want to give me something of what I want yeah that's to infer that she her love languages active service so knowing what your significant other in your spouse's love language is cuz if you're trying to show it.
the service and they access Services number five for them and this is free this is free the five love languages. Calm that's a free assessment that you can actually get your results and then go through those do you have both couples each individual will take those and then you have them swapped their papers out like the gifts okay no wonder I got in the dog house on any holiday that's a doghouse to a really big dog house in special you don't remember my birthday you know my mama's birthday you you were talking and which have reciprocity what stops people from the reciprocity is said that they're not in you've mentioned before about being unconscious in there
so I wonder if that has something to do with it is age regression
so when couples going to conflict when they go into parallel escalation when they start both going up the age goes down where I experienced the greatest rhombus or I'm going back to that age only this time I'm going to defend myself vigorously you better believe it. Yes I like how you put that cuz I call it flooding but I like how you put it that they go back to those agents of trauma has parallel escalation and it's the cycle patterns they hit the top of the cycle they come right back down they rest their hit the tree you hit a trigger I hit the trigger when he frequently go all the way up and then we just keep this going soul in it has age regression been coined his that term been claimed yet or is that yours cuz I haven't
I've heard of biological age of drama flooding but okay so that was once I get triggered and see that I try to get my adults to stick it is I am is a synonym for in adult mode so if I'm an adult and it's hard for me to you know it's this hard for me it should be hard for me to switch but with my adult panics my child steps in how old is your child after April all at bat so yeah that I like that I am as long as
felt so good I F S talks about being a lead you know adult all the little Personalities in your mind so it if I'm self-led than all the other personalities kind of calm down but if I panicked I have anxiety see your your child self as your Defender Defender Your Child Survivor okay so it's the situation I'm in therapy I'm loving this I needed this today I'm not kidding you when I'm in Michigan let me just tell you I'm in Michigan right now where I grew up and I haven't really been back since you do for quite some time other than a vacation and I have been apprehensive banking am I going to be 14 all the time now
no are there in heaven but at least one of them I know is
okay but back to this no I'm not near my parents but I'm near where we grew up so yeah and cut that grass and I need for you to go to the store and pick up some
it isn't until you know Mom you need to hire somebody to cut grass or we'll get somebody to come by and cut grass I'm not doing that anymore cuz when you come home mom expects everybody to fall into their role you feel like you're a kid deify their parents you can't not do it so when you go home and it's Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever whatever that role you play a grown grown up you go right back in and you just soon as you walk in the door you just come out of that come out about those rolls and how they shipped when we come back from our next break
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Welcome back to the bringing in the sea back show where intimacy is real I'm here with Doctor April and Leinster Devon who is American Family expert and relationship Guru at this point I'm like learning so much when we're going to delve a little bit deeper on how is that child felt that sometimes surfaces in Arbor t'kil relationships and in and I think about Bertha Lynn here I'm 5 foot tall and so I like that think I was like I've been five foot tall since the fifth grade never grew a single in but when we talked about vertical intimacy and when we revert to our child self
how could that possibly be you can't you know you can't have intimacy without having somebody look inside you that into me you see so what would you say to our audience and those that are listening and how they can delve deeper into a deeper relationship with themselves and the person that they're having a relationship with in this vertical intimacy well
Dad when I when I if I'm with my loved one
and and we we are attracted to people
remind us of the parent we had the hardest time with because they vibrate on the same frequency you could be a room full of people and you will dial in on that one person like that's her and you can be drawn towards each other and this you know and you can people say it all the time feel like I've known you all my life I pray that the exact same thing that's not gender-specific I could be attracted to a woman that reminds me of my dad on to each other
it with your grain is attempting to complete the past
there's a part of your memory that has absolutely no sense of time
two years ago 20 years ago don't matter for the moment to reconcile that pain and so we are attracted to people who vibrate at that level so that we can complete the past natural if you were to look at my last two x's they were cookie cutters of one though they were just like my mom was scarier so don't tell people you know I don't want to do that how do you love yourself
here's where he has work so I can go deep I never thought about loving myself I've been distracted from myself so if I grew up there but there's enough brothers and sisters in the house what was the caretaker what was the Superstar what was the scapegoat what was the mascot was the comedian one with highly religious so we got enough kids these kids about the Falls rules that keep Mom and Dad together
is the message the family says to me if I'm a superstar as we like you a superstar but that's that's contradictory because my authentic self is beside myself
but I only get love when I'm super star so I go off to college and I get all kinds of football scholarships and Dean's Leo full rides and all the stuff in it and the interviewer says how do you feel well my family likes it what will what about you
I'm I'm I'm just fulfilling my role
I don't feel anything so he's beside himself the authentic him comes out to nobody likes your self with will like you when your your your thing when you can play all of those roles that I mentioned those are false selves and family wanted me to be so when I ask a question how do you love yourself you don't know who self is you can't you don't really love the false self you love the authentic self and so what I have to do to cut a bring that authentic self out me introduce you to this person for the first time that nobody really likes
you know we have a guest that enter information in or questions into the chat boxes and or call in and have a question from an audience member Evelyn who wants to know more about the systems approach that you're talkin about
approach is kind of like if you can imagine a mobile you have seen a beautiful piece of art that the mobile and you got all these highly balance pieces that are coming off of this mobile if you touch one part of that mobile the whole thing moves that's the approach because everybody is connected to everybody
it is no separation we're all kind of in on on the same branch of the tree where where we're all in gentle motion and we're all
related to one another so that systems approach when I apply it to couples I know that you're coming out of some systems and they're trying to maintain homeostasis I want to play with the role I played here in the role you played there I kind of want to come and get it and we kind of want to play the same role in in in you if you let me play my role I'll let you play your role we won't learn nothing because this is what I bring one to steady-state but you don't really grow in a steady-state you grow when their difference is you grow when you have to accommodate or you grow when they're
challenges presented to you that you aren't accustomed to it takes you out of your group most people don't like being taken out of their groove so I can play my role as you can learn think that if the homeostasis is really strong and and I don't change
I just changed Partners I'm going to stay the same this is kind of a narcissist don't change who they are and they just keep rotating in different people do when somebody tells you or mon Mari 2 3 4 2 and 3 and 4 so what is one technique to help people like you said when this conflict that has changed we need to grow from that we need to go so what is one technique to help couples row instead of the people regressing
you probably going to need a third party to most people can't lie I can't get out of my head if I can't get out of my head I won't get out of my head because I made you wrong so you have to bring in a third-party the kind of shine a light on the unconscious Parts than conscious moving parts of the relationship the unconscious is driving 80 per-cent of your decisions so it isn't until you shine a light on I didn't realize I didn't know I was doing that oh my God it did I say that you know mechanisms of I said something to my child that I would never leave my parents never say to my child and you can't reach out fast enough to grab that before I hit your child ears and pull it back so
it is incumbent upon the couple took to get that help to do this maybe if your tooth fairy this maybe you could probably do that much outside of that you know that highly specialized knowledge is kind of hard to do it in and of your own volition
so have another question from John Mayall question here that's great all the question is how can I be more objective in arguments and
less emotional
well bet that's going to depend on the triggers what what which readers are you caring because it if if I'm your partner and and you I'm poking the bear I want to keep poking until Bing Bing Ding Ding Ding Ding you got in so here we both go in order for you to do is is and I always encourage this I saved you do I need for one of y'all to stay on the ground while the other one goes up
and is as long as you don't parallel Escalade with them if I stay on the ground you won't go up before so far is instead of us both going here you probably go up here and once you see that what you're doing is not working we will come back down yeah but the other person if there are dog is in their determination they will continue to poke you until you respond. I got you
so the it's dark but but that what you're talkin about is that an acquired taste you have to be in order to be successful you have to do that 27 times in a row before the neural plasticity kicks in your brain and gives you a new way to think about it if you going to 26th and you go back then you reset the whole thing you got my rehab is 28 days 28 27 repetition is just like it because if if you don't keep promises to yourself
you stay in that pattern all the time I'm I'm trying to lose weight I promise I'm going to stop smoking and you don't do anything about it so when you presented your brain if I can get right come back when you come back when you get serious I'm going to eat better I'm going to die then I'm like I'm not going to eat more junk food if you don't keep a promise to yourself and so that it is you almost to come hardwire to Chino and it isn't until you not going to break through that hard wire except with repetition it's kind of like breaking a rock with a hammer you got to keep chiseling away at it and little bits and pieces of it fall off until you get to change Yuan
keep at it so for those couples that are listening you want to keep chiseling away you want to keep at it don't give up press forward if you could say anything let's say that we're giving you this microphone Lynn and you have one thing that you can say to any couple that's right there on the fence and they're just thinking about just leaving because they do not have vertical Intimacy in their relationship they can have sex but that intimacy that they long for with the interaction among communication and I'm giving you a microphone right now what would you say to that person
seek professional help
ninety percent of divorced couples never saw anybody with dr. April Brown., how can people get in touch with you relationship coach. Pro thank you so much for your time with us I do have one final question from somebody in the audience here they just got in under the window and here it is
how does vertical intimacy really truly differ from sexual intimacy
they never gave her name
vertical intimacy is how well we get along when we are upright our day-to-day actions you know cooking cleaning and communicating going to work you know you got several verbal intimacy you relationships at work that you get along how well do we get along on our feet
sex is horizontal energy is in this this is bizizi that he just keeps saying it's easy but you know what it's not always easy for some crazy about is what's easy about it is it anybody can do it right but if you cannot have vertical intimacy sex is not easy horizontally at all and if sex was boring but when is all the Sexual Energy just exacerbates everything that's wrong with it sounds worse
they're intertwined you know I love the Bat Mobile illustration that you gave
I think I'm going to have to do some emotional work here cuz that mobile they are interconnected and I have six siblings while I mean there's six of us that's how we were raised now a couple of cents gone to heaven but I'm going to have to do a little bit of work so the first homework if you go ahead work work I am third
so I think I'm quite funny and I'm a twin
so yeah and the firstborn of the twin
and my love language is time and touch and I say if you spend time teaching me I'm happy always perfect so yeah right
I never expected a mirror I'm not sure what dr. April Brown is experienced in this podcast today but I just never expected to have a mirror held up to me today and I want to thank you for your influence in my life today I'm going to do some of that work I'm going to go back and I'm going to take the love languages test that you can find at five love languages that come with the I believe it is it Gary Chapman and I'm going to take that to see if they're still the same they pretty much stay the same want to encourage I know that the first the birth order first born step marry the two first born's they're the highest divorcing couple the highest divorce rate second forms are the most to second-born sit stay together at they they rarely divorce but doesn't mean that they shouldn't ask
what I came from I don't care what the baby baby if what I try to focus on getting baby babies leave home
could be so used to being told what to do for that y'all leave home mentally physically spiritually and then you face each other and it's like you know somebody take the lead and then you okay this week I want you to take the next week and want you and don't want you to see what feels comfortable to you don't call your family and keep them out your business you know especially that one the ability to say no to family
that one debility put yourself first
lyssy Noel Purcell first those those are really too important pillars of I do all getting a workshop on how do you how do you love yourself and be a good one is boundaries you got to have boundaries that so all three of those are in conjunction you can't grow your relationship with your family's well thank you so much land sturdimount we're so pleased to have you on the show today thank you it's been an honor to have you and every kind of try to work together before but yes you are phenomenal relationship therapist and yes I can see that well we have upcoming shows July 1st we have Matthew Wenger sexual addiction is an intimacy problems
8 Dr John Mayer education and intimacy for non-traditional student July 15th the whole man Chronicles host making working friendships work in July 29th Zach Beach learning to love from the heart and don't forget to follow us on social media and if you want to be a part of the bringing intimacy back Community request to join us on Facebook and also Instagram Tik-Tok Twitter Youtube you get the idea and also we do have merch we have merchandise to go to the bringing intimacy back. Cam bringing intimacy back that website and check it out there
is a pleasure spending time with you again doctor April yes thank you so much for thank you you're welcome have a great rest of your day Wherever You Are