Speaker Identification

Speaker 1 - Steve Dupuie, Interviewer / Announcer
The speaker introduces and closes the Bible News Prophecy program, addresses Dr. Bob Thiel, and asks the episode's guiding and follow-up questions. The source renders his surname inconsistently as "Dupuis" and "DePuig"; "Dupuie" is the most likely editorial rendering but requires verification.

Speaker 2 - Dr. Bob Thiel, Bible Prophecy Commentator
The speaker is introduced as Dr. Bob Thiel and provides the episode's extended biblical analysis. The automated transcript renders the surname phonetically as "Teal"; the corrected spelling requires verification against the program's official records.

Speaker 1: Greetings, friends. This is Steve Dupuie for the Bible News Prophecy program, with Dr. Bob Thiel bringing you news and analysis of world events in light of Bible prophecy.

Dr. Thiel, Jesus tells us He will protect some of His followers from the Great Tribulation. Where might that place of safety be?

Speaker 2: A lot of people have thought it might be a place called Petra in Jordan. But one of my questions is: What if it is not? Would most Christians flee to a different location? I do not think so.

Someone else asked me about a place called Bozrah as a possible place of safety, and that prompted me to do some research. I came across a writing by a man named Tim McHyde. It is about a decade old, so I would like to read some of what he wrote. I think he makes some good points, while other points raise questions.

For example, he asks, "Is Petra the prepared place of safety for Israel or you?" He says Petra, Jordan, was once a stronghold of the Edomites and was later the capital of the Arab Nabataeans. Will this be the number-one destination for the Israelites in the end time?

The most popular speculation about Petra is that Jews escaping the Battle of Armageddon will find refuge there. Proponents point to various Old Testament prophecies. On the other hand, he says some believe that the true Church - in this case, the Philadelphian Christians - will be protected in fulfillment of Revelation 12. He says both views are based on Scripture and asks which one makes more sense.

Some think Petra could hold the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14. Some in the old Worldwide Church of God thought there would be 144,000 of its members there. The Petra theory has appeal, but is it grounded in realism?

You can search the Bible and you will not see the name Petra. Instead, you will find the modern Greek name for the city or its Hebrew equivalent, Sela; Petra and Sela both mean "rock." That is one basis for the speculation about Petra.

As for how many people could comfortably live there, Petra was a small city with a population of about 20,000. He therefore does not think more than 20,000 to 40,000 people could go there.

He then asks, "Doesn't Revelation 12 say Israel is protected?" He begins with Revelation 12:1-5, which describes a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon and twelve stars, who gives birth to a male child. Some people therefore conclude that the passage must refer to the nation of Israel.

He then cites Revelation 12:13-17. I will read only verse 17 right now, because I will return to the other part later. From the English Standard Version, it says that the dragon was furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring - those who keep God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. He concludes that this eliminates the woman from being the nation of Israel, and he is absolutely right about that.

He then asks and answers several questions.

Speaker 1: What about Bozrah?

Speaker 2: He says that, like Petra, Bozrah is part of Jordan. Some might ask whether Jordan is a Muslim country. He says Jordan will be evacuated and laid waste in an attack against Israel. He also thinks people will need passports. As for how we will know when to go, he believes God will send a prophet, since no one knows the day or the hour.

Speaker 1: How much time do we have now?

Speaker 2: He says, "I don't think there will be a prophet until the 2020s at the earliest."

Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on Tim McHyde's speculation, Dr. Thiel?

Speaker 2: He gets a couple of parts right, but I do not believe Jordan will be evacuated, so I think he is wrong about that. I do think a prophet will say when it is time to go. I do not think that will happen before the 2030s.

Having said that, I would like to read something written by Herbert W. Armstrong, the late pastor general of the old Worldwide Church of God:

"Incidentally, I know many of you have your hearts set on going soon to Petra as a place of safety during the Great Tribulation. Well, get your minds off Petra, brethren. I have never said Petra definitely is the place of safety where God takes us. I hope it is not. One reason that place would be suitable is that nobody would want to go there. It is the most unpleasant, uncomfortable, miserable place you could go. There is nothing to be desired there. But, just in case, God has given us some favor in the eyes of the king there and his brother."

Currently speaking, people would not want to choose Petra as a place to go, either. I do think Petra is large enough for the Philadelphian Christians to be protected there. They are the only Christians who will be protected from the Beast, because most Christians will not be protected. I will read that scripture later.

Petra itself covers a much larger area than the rock-cut, cave-like section most people think of. Therefore, Petra - or possibly part of it - might be the place.

Speaker 1: Does the Bible give us any hints about where the place of safety might be?

Speaker 2: Yes. Several clues in the Bible suggest that a Jordanian location makes sense. Part of this conclusion is based on where the place is not.

Speaker 1: Where might it not be?

Speaker 2: Some people say there are no clues in the Bible. But if you look at Scripture, Jeremiah 4:5-6, for example, says: "Declare in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say: 'Blow the trumpet in the land; cry, "Gather together," and say, "Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the fortified cities." Set up the standard toward Zion. Take refuge! Do not delay! For I will bring disaster from the north, and great destruction.'"

We see that disaster comes from the north. The passage indicates that people would not want to remain in Judea or Jerusalem and would want to go south of there.

In Luke 21:20-21, Jesus confirmed the concept that people would have to flee: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her."

This seems to say that the place is not in Judea or Jerusalem, nor is it north of them.

We know the Bible says to flee Babylon. Zechariah 2, beginning in verse 6, says: "Up, up! Flee from the land of the north.... Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon." The Bible is telling us that the northern land is not the place.

The Bible also forecasts the near-total destruction of islands in Revelation 6 and Revelation 16, so an island does not seem to be the place of safety, either.

Speaker 1: Is it possible that the place of safety could be wherever a Christian happens to be when it is time to flee?

Speaker 2: Some people want to claim that, but that is not what the Bible says. In Isaiah 33, we read: "He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, he who despises the gain of oppressions, who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil: He will dwell on high; his place of defense will be the fortress of rocks; bread will be given him, his water will be sure."

Then Isaiah 45:20 says, "Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together." This speaks about a place of rocks. It does not say that each person will remain alone wherever he or she happens to be.

We also read about gathering together in Zephaniah 2: "Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, O undesirable nation, before the decree is issued" - the decree, I believe, to flee - "before the day passes like chaff, before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you! Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger."

We are reading about people going somewhere to be hidden. There will be a decree, and they need to gather together to do this. God is not talking about protecting individuals wherever they happen to be.

Zephaniah 2:4 says, "For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon desolate; they shall drive out Ashdod at noonday, and Ekron shall be uprooted." It continues: "Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, the nation of the Cherethites! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines."

We are talking about what I call the area southwest of Jerusalem. Before the Gaza war, the lands discussed here were occupied primarily by Palestinians.

Speaker 1: What locations would that leave where people might be safe?

Speaker 2: You would have to choose a different direction, and that points basically toward the southeast.

David said in Psalm 27:5, "For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion; in the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me; He shall set me high upon a rock." There may be dual meanings here.

We also see in 1 Samuel 23 that David had to get away from Saul. He called the location the Rock of Escape. That is the rock of Sela - the Petra of escape, if you want to call it that. Again, however, it does not have to be this particular location.

Petra is a rocky outpost in Jordan, and it is in the right direction. It is also possible that the actual place of protection could be near Petra, on its outskirts, or perhaps at a location far from it.

Speaker 1: What about Bozrah? How does it fit in?

Speaker 2: The prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah wrote about Bozrah. Isaiah 34 speaks about a sword coming down on Edom and says, "For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah." We will return to that later.

Jeremiah 49 again speaks about Edom. Verse 22 says, "Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, and spread His wings over Bozrah." That is interesting because eagle's wings are also mentioned in Revelation 12:14.

We also see something in Micah 2. I will read this from Young's Literal Translation: "I do surely gather thee, O Jacob, all of thee; I surely bring together the remnant of Israel; I set it together as the flock of Bozrah."

Some of these passages sound interesting. The problem, however, is that Edom and the Edomites are going to be punished. The Bible shows that, because of the way the Edomites treated, betrayed, and attacked Israel, God has a special punishment for them. That is why I do not think Bozrah is the place of safety. The Bozrah prophecies relate more directly to Edom, so I do not believe it is the place.

Some people have wondered about places such as Petra, but there are reasons it might not be Petra.

Speaker 1: Such as?

Speaker 2: Petra is a leading tourist destination in Jordan, so the authorities might not want us there. The Philadelphian Christians could go there for a time and then perhaps move elsewhere.

Regarding the Philadelphian Christians, Jesus speaks to them in Revelation 3, beginning in verse 7. In verse 10, He tells them, "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

He does not make that promise to any of the other churches, so it applies to only part of the Christian community.

I mentioned Revelation 12. In verse 14, we see that the woman was given two wings of a great eagle so that she could fly to her place in the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, times, and half a time. That is three and one-half years. Notice that it is a wilderness. This is not heaven. People do not get raptured to heaven to escape the Great Tribulation.

Earlier, I read verse 17. It says that the rest of her offspring will not be protected. Therefore, not all Christians will be protected. There are two groups of Christians: one that will be protected and one that will not.

A place such as Petra, or another wilderness location, is possible. Again, however, the actual place may be somewhere else nearby. While Petra might not be the place, it is one location to consider as the place of protection that Jesus promised.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Dr. Thiel.

For more interviews with Dr. Thiel, in addition to written and audio articles, visit our website at biblenewsprophecy.net.

This is Steve Dupuie for the Bible News Prophecy program.