Morgana and Devin: Today, our episode is about infidelity and we have a special guest and author cj grace.  She is the author of "adulterers wife, how to thrive, whether you stay or not." Her mantra is the best revenge is to get past the need for revenge.  And so, you know that is like that's not been an issue in our relationship, and you know, hopefully, never will be, but it's something that does show up in a lot of relationships, so I thought it was a good thing to address, especially because I really like her.

00:00:01.740 --> 00:00:02.879
Morgana and Devin: Welcome cj.

2
00:00:04.470 --> 00:00:05.339
CJ: Thank you.

3
00:00:07.859 --> 00:00:11.940
Morgana and Devin: infidelity what a fun topic.

4
00:00:12.269 --> 00:00:13.860
CJ: So anyway, yes.

5
00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:14.639
CJ: well.

6
00:00:14.849 --> 00:00:17.910
Morgana and Devin: The reason I wanted you is because.

7
00:00:19.170 --> 00:00:29.910
Morgana and Devin: it's not a fun topic, but you're fun and when there's something so we may we may trick everybody so right.

8
00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:43.770
Morgana and Devin: How so well Well, no, I mean it's it's an intense subject right for many people who are in this middle you know mid life experience.

9
00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:49.980
Morgana and Devin: there's probably a whole there's a whole lot of our audience, who have experienced it in one form or another.

10
00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.090
Morgana and Devin: So it's an important thing, nothing else to get your head right.

11
00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:55.800
Morgana and Devin: So.

12
00:00:57.540 --> 00:01:01.710
Morgana and Devin: Please tell us how you approach infidelity.

13
00:01:02.490 --> 00:01:07.350
CJ: Well, I learned about it viscerally because my ex husband.

14
00:01:08.370 --> 00:01:18.330
CJ: I found out that he had been unfaithful throughout the marriage, but the final thing that I found out about I didn't know at the time when earlier on, but I found out that he was.

15
00:01:18.720 --> 00:01:28.380
CJ: Having a fairly long term relationship with a woman that was much younger she was 33 years younger but similar to your dad Devon actually.

16
00:01:28.740 --> 00:01:33.120
Morgana and Devin: I was about to say I guess you must have heard a little bit about it but yeah I know.

17
00:01:33.360 --> 00:01:39.390
Morgana and Devin: My my father ended up marrying a woman who is about 3030 plus years younger than he was.

18
00:01:39.600 --> 00:01:46.080
CJ: yeah and it's a it's a whole generation different, but the thing was that.

19
00:01:47.370 --> 00:01:52.350
CJ: I obviously felt absolutely devastated at the time it was as if the.

20
00:01:52.830 --> 00:02:03.300
CJ: The world had collapsed because also I not only had that but very shortly after finding out about my husband's infidelity I was diagnosed with breast cancer, for the second time.

21
00:02:03.570 --> 00:02:15.900
CJ: So that was a real double whammy and I just felt like the earth has been taken away from underneath my feet, but one of the things that I was really.

22
00:02:16.980 --> 00:02:33.960
CJ: Strong about was, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't acting on emotions because it's so easy to get revenge driven it's so easy to make poor decisions because you're in an emotional mess and I didn't want to be.

23
00:02:34.410 --> 00:02:41.220
CJ: Doing that my mantra was that the best revenge is to get past the need for it.

24
00:02:41.700 --> 00:02:50.250
CJ: I wanted to use this experience as a sort of kick in the pants really to learn how to have my life, be better than it was before.

25
00:02:50.640 --> 00:03:02.550
CJ: not as good as got better and the funny thing was that it unleashed a whole amount of creativity in me i'm a former BBC journalist i've always been.

26
00:03:03.150 --> 00:03:17.040
CJ: interested in writing, I love writing I was actually helping my ex with books that he was writing but, once this happened to me I started having writing come out of me like Delhi diarrhea you know it was.

27
00:03:18.390 --> 00:03:30.600
CJ: You know I just did, and the way that I wrote i've written a book that's one of the books has already been published adulterous wife, how to thrive, whether you stay or not, and it is actually a comedy self help.

28
00:03:31.050 --> 00:03:42.240
CJ: semi memoir but it's more of a comedy self help book and it's got cartoons in it so i'm looking at it with a sense of the absurd I was brought up on Monty Python and.

29
00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:43.830
Morgana and Devin: So I tend you're here.

30
00:03:44.040 --> 00:03:54.660
CJ: Oh yes, yes, I see the world in in a sense of the absurd because Morgan, or if you don't laugh you'll cry and what would you rather do.

31
00:03:55.590 --> 00:04:04.500
CJ: You know, so that that's that was that was how I began, and how I started to write about it and I interviewed a lot of women.

32
00:04:05.040 --> 00:04:19.950
CJ: I found out a lot of stories and to be quite frank, I was grateful that my circumstances was so much easier than than women, I spoke to I mean it whatever your circumstances that can always be worse.

33
00:04:20.730 --> 00:04:21.510
CJ: Like I would say.

34
00:04:23.940 --> 00:04:32.490
Morgana and Devin: We haven't had that in our relationship um it's kind of a scary topic for me a.

35
00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:43.860
Morgana and Devin: part of my strategy of getting married so late in life was kind of there's just not a lot of time or energy for that right.

36
00:04:44.070 --> 00:04:45.390
CJ: Absolutely.

37
00:04:45.450 --> 00:04:50.790
CJ: You know, if not now, when we have an expiration date, you know get on with it have the LIFE you want.

38
00:04:51.450 --> 00:04:58.620
Morgana and Devin: So you know I think we got a lot of our really stupid selfish drama out of the way when we were younger.

39
00:04:59.760 --> 00:05:07.830
Morgana and Devin: But when I was growing up when I was 12 years old, my mother found out that my stepfather was cheating on her and she attempted suicide.

40
00:05:08.520 --> 00:05:10.620
Morgana and Devin: Oh, my God that like.

41
00:05:11.130 --> 00:05:20.160
Morgana and Devin: Really deep visceral impact of just how deep that wound is of betrayal.

42
00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:27.930
Morgana and Devin: And then you have your experience, while you were having drama with your body to.

43
00:05:28.470 --> 00:05:47.520
Morgana and Devin: So that's that's a lot to process and and feel good about life at the same time, so you're kind of a hero, to me, and I want to, and I want to hear about that right how how because there's obviously multiple layers to all of this, and yes, I want to get to the jokes and the comedy.

44
00:05:48.750 --> 00:05:51.390
Morgana and Devin: But how did you how did you process that.

45
00:05:52.500 --> 00:06:01.350
CJ: Well, you know I developed what ended up being a six part program which I can go into more detail now, if you'd like to hear about that.

46
00:06:01.890 --> 00:06:06.870
CJ: Sure yeah so there was six things that I did, first of all.

47
00:06:07.590 --> 00:06:16.680
CJ: found confidence and mentors that I could vent to that would give me good advice that had my best interest in heart at heart and.

48
00:06:16.890 --> 00:06:27.720
CJ: Sometimes people would be seeing a paid counselor or a coach to do that I was fortunate enough to have some good friends, some of whom had coaching experience, who gave me really good advice.

49
00:06:27.990 --> 00:06:40.890
CJ: And it's always a good idea to have mentors and coaches of both sexes, because you get such a different view from a guy about this subject than you would with a a woman, they.

50
00:06:41.490 --> 00:06:47.100
CJ: So it's really important to do that and it's important to choose wisely there was one person that I knew.

51
00:06:47.970 --> 00:06:59.400
CJ: And I realized very soon after I started confiding in him that he was really only after the next episode of the soap opera That was my life at the time.

52
00:06:59.670 --> 00:07:13.500
CJ: And you know, was very happy to email all my mutual friends about what i'd said, which I was not keen on happening So there you go you do need to choose carefully so The second thing I did was to.

53
00:07:13.890 --> 00:07:22.770
CJ: cultivate existing and new connections and rebuild my friend circle, because I found that almost all the people I was hanging out with were either friends of my.

54
00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:39.090
CJ: husband's or people connected with the business that we joined the shared that was based on his expertise and it is not very professional to be venting about your husband to somebody that you're that is part of your joint business you just cannot do that.

55
00:07:39.270 --> 00:07:41.820
CJ: So I could you try.

56
00:07:44.940 --> 00:07:49.620
CJ: working for us, I didn't yeah you really test that hypothesis.

57
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:53.670
CJ: Right, I tried not to because I didn't want them to have to take sides.

58
00:07:54.090 --> 00:08:03.600
CJ: And what was really kind of and not so great, was that some of them who had been accompanying him on his when he was doing trainings out of the country.

59
00:08:03.810 --> 00:08:08.880
CJ: have some idea in their head that well we just had an open relationship on him.

60
00:08:09.750 --> 00:08:11.340
CJ: He had an open relationship.

61
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:13.800
CJ: consensual open.

62
00:08:15.990 --> 00:08:23.910
CJ: But I didn't want to put anybody in the middle, and I also you know one thing, just to digress was that.

63
00:08:24.630 --> 00:08:30.810
CJ: One minute a man or a woman if he's if it's a woman that's been unfaithful one minute they're the love of your life.

64
00:08:31.260 --> 00:08:47.040
CJ: The next minute they're the devil incarnate because you find out that they've been cheating, but really it's the same person, you know somebody who's just a flawed human being with good points that drew you to them in the first place and bad points that may make you now want to leave.

65
00:08:47.280 --> 00:08:51.270
CJ: So I just think it's a very, very bad idea to demonize.

66
00:08:51.300 --> 00:09:03.570
CJ: Your partner, and if you start trying to demonize your partner to people that your work that you are both working with professionally that's a really bad idea, you know incredibly bad idea, so.

67
00:09:04.590 --> 00:09:08.520
Morgana and Devin: begs the question how is your relationship with your ex now.

68
00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:17.670
CJ: um it is decent, it is not good it I wouldn't say he's a Muslim buddy, but we can talk on the phone because I never wanted to have a situation where.

69
00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:26.370
CJ: You know, we closed communications and the slightest thing that we had to discuss would have to go through lawyers I don't think so that's not the way to move forward.

70
00:09:26.910 --> 00:09:33.330
CJ: So I can talk to him, I can sort of talk to his mistress stroke fiance but.

71
00:09:33.780 --> 00:09:42.750
CJ: She doesn't particularly like me so so be it, but I felt like I needed to cultivate a neutral attitude as much as possible to.

72
00:09:43.110 --> 00:09:50.880
CJ: To them and try to remember the reason why I was with my ex in the first place, I mean we did have good years.

73
00:09:51.390 --> 00:10:07.230
CJ: We have two wonderful grown sons and I do not regret what I did I don't regret the relationship because regret is about isn't about the past it's about the present so if you're happy with where you are now you don't regret the past.

74
00:10:07.290 --> 00:10:09.390
CJ: But it's brought me right to where you are now.

75
00:10:09.630 --> 00:10:13.140
Morgana and Devin: and regret is sort of like punishing yourself for the adults.

76
00:10:13.140 --> 00:10:14.340
Morgana and Devin: Right somebody else.

77
00:10:14.430 --> 00:10:17.970
CJ: out that's right, you know there's this saying.

78
00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:25.260
CJ: That I read it from carrot in a book by carrie Fisher but then later found out it came from St Augustine.

79
00:10:25.590 --> 00:10:25.830
CJ: and

80
00:10:26.310 --> 00:10:32.820
Morgana and Devin: it's about I get them confused all the time, yes, I know they do look the same, but the thing was it's resent it.

81
00:10:33.030 --> 00:10:38.310
CJ: resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

82
00:10:39.810 --> 00:10:55.530
CJ: And, in a way revenge is planning revenge is a bit like that it's the same story you turn it around and you're not letting yourself move on, because you're just stuck in that endless dynamic cycle and I just didn't I didn't want to do that.

83
00:10:56.040 --> 00:10:56.580
Morgana and Devin: Right well.

84
00:10:57.090 --> 00:10:59.070
CJ: it's a pain is the focus i'm sorry go ahead.

85
00:10:59.070 --> 00:11:13.410
CJ: yeah yeah so well absolutely and then you know going on to cultivating existing and new connections that was very, very important, because you have to build your circle and I had like like a lot of women who get very involved in their husbands stuff.

86
00:11:14.850 --> 00:11:19.740
CJ: You know where their husband is a you know, a pretty high level person in their field, as he was.

87
00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:29.910
CJ: You tend to let your own stuff go, and so I left let my friends go there was one really great friend of mine in in England.

88
00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:41.520
CJ: who thought that she had done something to offend me because she'd sent me emails and I hadn't responded so I just thought well leave no stone unturned get my old friends back.

89
00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:53.070
CJ: I reconnected with people who are you know boyfriends and stuff and actually I reconnected with an old boyfriend and we are now still still together as he is my significant other.

90
00:11:53.280 --> 00:11:55.620
CJ: Despite the fact that he's very far away in London.

91
00:11:56.430 --> 00:12:13.350
CJ: cove it has not been great for our ability to be together, sadly, but you know it's so important to have your own friends and again friends of both sexes that's how you can move on and that's how you have joy because you're hanging out with your friends.

92
00:12:14.310 --> 00:12:18.870
Morgana and Devin: And i'm gonna stop for a second with I love what you said about both sexes.

93
00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:27.330
Morgana and Devin: Because it's very easy for either party to get really bitter.

94
00:12:27.660 --> 00:12:37.830
Morgana and Devin: about the others, the other sex and they don't seem quite human and you need to have some kind of healthy connection just for your own sanity and to be open and.

95
00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:46.650
Morgana and Devin: When I first started falling in love with Devon I transformed from this very poise self confident.

96
00:12:48.030 --> 00:12:52.260
Morgana and Devin: Self collected person into a progressively hot mess.

97
00:12:52.650 --> 00:12:53.700
Morgana and Devin: Because I liked him.

98
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.500
CJ: Well yeah I mean when I started dating my.

99
00:12:59.880 --> 00:13:03.120
CJ: My friend from before you know it was.

100
00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:14.130
CJ: It was like being a teenager again, you know my middle age, you get into this teenager a thing and it's it's wonderful it's wonderful to be able to do that um.

101
00:13:14.310 --> 00:13:20.850
Morgana and Devin: it's fun and I found it useful to have a guy to say will Devon did this, what does it mean.

102
00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:24.240
Morgana and Devin: and have somebody like.

103
00:13:24.450 --> 00:13:26.670
Morgana and Devin: You know crack the code.

104
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:36.420
CJ: Oh right, yes, yes, you know I mean again with me, I was thinking I don't know my it's am I, making a mistake falling for somebody else you know i'm gonna.

105
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:47.460
CJ: I remember feeling like I was jumping into an abyss and i'm thinking Oh, this is bound to end in tears, but so far it hasn't this been really very, very nice.

106
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:56.190
Morgana and Devin: Did you have were you like talking to your friends, when you were falling in love to just like when you were on rambling.

107
00:13:56.610 --> 00:14:00.810
CJ: Marriage I didn't until things seemed very stable because.

108
00:14:01.140 --> 00:14:14.130
CJ: You know how it is you don't want to jinx it I didn't want to say Oh, I met this great guy that I used to know we used to work together and the BBC and blah blah blah and and I really like him, and it is great, and I, you know and then find that it.

109
00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:28.830
CJ: unraveled I wanted to be sure, and there is this thing that if you say how much you like somebody and and how you want it to continue that somehow it it's sort of like tempting the universe for the thing to crumble.

110
00:14:28.890 --> 00:14:32.190
CJ: Right wanted to wait for it to be really.

111
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:42.120
CJ: solid and, in fact, my sister got really pissed off with me for not telling her and the time that that I was at the beginning, you know.

112
00:14:42.540 --> 00:14:44.220
Morgana and Devin: How long did it take to get.

113
00:14:46.050 --> 00:14:50.760
CJ: It didn't take very long, you know within a within just a few months.

114
00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:59.040
CJ: It was it was pretty fast and one of the things was because we knew each other from before it wasn't a brand new.

115
00:15:00.300 --> 00:15:05.850
CJ: thing because he had been a friend before and it just.

116
00:15:07.050 --> 00:15:18.720
CJ: It So if you know somebody and you've known them, even though I hadn't seen him i'd known him for 35 years I hadn't been in contact with him for probably about 30 of those years.

117
00:15:19.230 --> 00:15:33.750
CJ: When I saw him again, but we had common ground we use the same people and it wasn't like you were dating a stranger and trying to get in there and have things work, I mean in your case morgana.

118
00:15:34.890 --> 00:15:41.520
CJ: Was devin a friend before he became you know your significant other or was he just somebody that you started dating first.

119
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.040
Morgana and Devin: he's somebody I found on a dating out.

120
00:15:44.550 --> 00:15:46.110
Morgana and Devin: Really yeah.

121
00:15:46.170 --> 00:15:49.080
CJ: God, how can you get such good quality stuff on a dating.

122
00:15:51.030 --> 00:15:54.570
Morgana and Devin: Joe I wanted to say something about and i've told this story before.

123
00:15:54.810 --> 00:15:56.700
Morgana and Devin: That my intention was when I.

124
00:15:56.760 --> 00:16:06.270
Morgana and Devin: joined the dating APP I thought there was zero chance and absolute zero chance that I would be dating anybody from that or meeting anybody have any quality at all.

125
00:16:06.660 --> 00:16:23.580
Morgana and Devin: So I had, I had the plan was okay i'll sign up for the dating APP and I would be there by telling the universe that i'm now ready to be dating and I would see her at the library or the market or the bank or something and then I fall in love there.

126
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:27.570
Morgana and Devin: But not on a dating APP so that is beyond.

127
00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:39.420
Morgana and Devin: Any any concept at all, because I was certain we'd go out on a date, and I think well, maybe she'll be at the the woman, that I was intending to be with maybe she'll be at the at the restaurant when.

128
00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:46.650
Morgana and Devin: I looked at the photos that he chose for the dating APP you would see that he had zero intention.

129
00:16:48.570 --> 00:16:52.830
Morgana and Devin: I think I just made, I think I just picked a random six photographs and threw them up.

130
00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:54.030
CJ: There wasn't.

131
00:16:54.690 --> 00:17:01.470
Morgana and Devin: You know, there was some thought process like I want to repel women right now let them know how cute I am.

132
00:17:01.770 --> 00:17:05.310
Morgana and Devin: right that was really my sincere hope but you know what are you going to do.

133
00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:22.860
CJ: You failed Devon I failed I failed I failed my way six six to success, which is something that which I really identify with so I wanted to ask you, when you started dating your bow mm hmm.

134
00:17:23.970 --> 00:17:27.090
Morgana and Devin: Are you wiser now.

135
00:17:27.840 --> 00:17:30.270
Morgana and Devin: Are you different than when you chose.

136
00:17:30.330 --> 00:17:31.590
Morgana and Devin: The the former guy.

137
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:40.710
CJ: Absolutely, I mean I one of the things that I was really not looking forward to when my marriage crumbled was getting back into the dating game.

138
00:17:40.890 --> 00:17:42.570
Morgana and Devin: Because I absolutely.

139
00:17:42.870 --> 00:17:54.870
CJ: hated it I hated it with a vengeance, because when I was younger I just couldn't I just it just didn't work well, for me, I was I wasn't confident in my looks I.

140
00:17:55.410 --> 00:18:01.320
CJ: would get if there was a guy that I really liked I would get tongue tied and I wouldn't really know what to say.

141
00:18:01.950 --> 00:18:11.910
CJ: i'd need to have I don't drink anything now i'm teetotal, as they say in Britain, which is very unusual for a Brit, let me tell you, but I used to not be able to talk to a guy on this, I was a wee bit tipsy.

142
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:18.270
CJ: When I was younger because I needed that Dutch courage if you know the meaning of that expression.

143
00:18:19.170 --> 00:18:27.960
CJ: But I also look so young, I was flat chested I was sure I didn't have any glamour my sister was the glamorous one and not me.

144
00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:38.340
CJ: You know um, and so I was just not confident and I didn't really end up having a great time dating and I didn't couldn't deal with the Games playing and.

145
00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:48.840
CJ: Playing hard to get, and all this kind of crap it just didn't do it for me, so I was expecting it to be awful really awful but I was very pleasantly surprised because.

146
00:18:49.830 --> 00:18:57.390
CJ: I was being asked out by all kinds of people, I mean a lot of them were people I didn't have any great desire to go out with but it's very flattering.

147
00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:02.430
CJ: You know, when you think wow i'm a middle aged woman in you know approaching my.

148
00:19:02.820 --> 00:19:16.530
CJ: Sixth decade and these people think they want to go out with me and some of them are even younger than I am and gold, I was really surprised, you know, and it was it actually was a blast it really was a blast and part of it is.

149
00:19:17.310 --> 00:19:24.240
CJ: As you get older you just have more life experience you're more confident in your own skin you've got things to talk about.

150
00:19:24.570 --> 00:19:30.690
CJ: And one of the things that I came out with from that six part program that I haven't quite finished rabbiting on about.

151
00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:45.330
CJ: It the whole point of it was to make me feel more complete and more sort of creative and joyful as a human being on my own and so that, with a with a partner i'd be feeling complete and.

152
00:19:45.750 --> 00:20:03.570
CJ: I think that's key if you feel like you, are complete, rather than absolutely desperate to have a guy or a woman if if that's your inclination to to complete you if you feel you aren't complete without a partner, then you end up being very needy and you are probably attracting.

153
00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:15.570
CJ: The wrong kind of people to have something be a successful relationship so Oh, it was so much better, I was really midlife dating was so much better.

154
00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:29.460
CJ: And the other thing was you don't take any crap you don't have to play games, you are what you are they are what they are, I don't give a shit if you, you know, have a dental plate, whatever the hell, it is you know.

155
00:20:30.690 --> 00:20:41.490
CJ: I don't give a shit you know that's fine you know and don't mind if I fart and all of this kind of you sort of earthy and normal and you don't have to put up a huge.

156
00:20:42.060 --> 00:20:51.240
CJ: facade of how perfect you are because nobody's perfect they aren't perfect you aren't perfect, but you have to enjoy each other's imperfections.

157
00:20:52.110 --> 00:21:02.820
Morgana and Devin: Well, I think it's what you just described in my humble opinion is incredibly liberating I think you know as you were talking about you know i'm not a huge fan of the aging process.

158
00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:14.790
Morgana and Devin: I want my 20 year old niece back, I want you know there's a whole lot of little things that I want in terms of what youth is but in terms of the way I see the world.

159
00:21:16.260 --> 00:21:20.310
Morgana and Devin: I wouldn't rather I would not want to be anywhere else.

160
00:21:20.370 --> 00:21:21.330
Morgana and Devin: Absolutely, because.

161
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.980
Morgana and Devin: Because really once you started, you know you're talking about partying and other kinds of things like that.

162
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.730
Morgana and Devin: it's like.

163
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:42.870
Morgana and Devin: All that stuff is like oh right it's fine right it's like we're fine it's there's nothing to be concerned about and so with each thing that you sort of like allow to fall by the wayside, the rest of my world becomes much lighter.

164
00:21:43.590 --> 00:21:50.850
CJ: Absolutely, I have to say that the other day, I came across a diary I wrote when I was 15 and I was shocked.

165
00:21:51.240 --> 00:22:03.420
CJ: I was such a shallow vacuous person in there, I mean I wouldn't have wanted to date me I was sort of I mean it's all about you know concerned about boys and appearance and.

166
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:14.160
CJ: This friends done this and that friends done that, and and I was mean to friends, but I would be pissed off if they were mean to me and equally if a guy was.

167
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:25.140
CJ: hitting on me that I didn't like I wouldn't be particularly nice to him in brushing them off and yet I would be very upset and hurt if if if another guy that I did fancy did the same thing to me and.

168
00:22:25.530 --> 00:22:35.460
CJ: You know it's funny I didn't realize that I was that person, when I was 15 and I am so glad that I no longer Am I.

169
00:22:35.490 --> 00:22:45.480
Morgana and Devin: You know it's funny you should bring that up, I have a briefcase up in a closet and in the briefcase is all of this poetry that I wrote.

170
00:22:45.840 --> 00:23:08.400
Morgana and Devin: were at the moment I was writing it i'm literally first off i'm drunk that was probably 15 drunk 15 and chain smoking and writing this stuff out that I was certain was brilliant that was deep deep and insightful things about the world about myself and it's the worst garbage.

171
00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:23.550
Morgana and Devin: it's really like I should put it together as just hey please I want I was hoping to humiliate myself my dad right just put a big staple through the whole thing and send it off for all the world to laugh.

172
00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:26.550
CJ: How have you allowed morgana to see it.

173
00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:27.900
Morgana and Devin: You know I haven't because.

174
00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:32.400
CJ: it's not something I don't I don't sit and pine over it very often.

175
00:23:32.610 --> 00:23:45.360
Morgana and Devin: But once every great while I, like you know when i'm not feeling well i'll open it up and i'm like Oh well, whoever that idiot was you're not him congratulations and then it's time to close the briefcase for another year or two.

176
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:51.540
Morgana and Devin: But yeah i'm happy to her see it it's it's it's really it's amazing how we evolve.

177
00:23:52.590 --> 00:23:54.300
CJ: And all right.

178
00:23:55.320 --> 00:24:03.660
Morgana and Devin: yeah no, it was humiliating absolute absolute garbage but I remember at the time how incredibly important.

179
00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:08.310
Morgana and Devin: These thoughts were to write down and to put them down on paper.

180
00:24:09.570 --> 00:24:18.540
Morgana and Devin: so that you could laugh about so I can brag about it yeah and writing about a girl that if my life depended on it, I couldn't tell you who it was.

181
00:24:19.620 --> 00:24:28.470
Morgana and Devin: But at that moment, if she had only seen the real me then all would be fine and you know, not the case.

182
00:24:28.560 --> 00:24:33.570
CJ: wow so let me go on with my six part program because and.

183
00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:35.970
CJ: that's why we agree.

184
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:44.100
CJ: This is the third one laughter therapy because That to me is one of the most important ones, having been reared on a diet of Monty Python as we, as I said earlier.

185
00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:50.580
CJ: And I made sure I hang out with people who brought me out rather than made me feel down.

186
00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:05.220
CJ: Inside me there was some relative a particular relative whom I will not mentioned by name, who was very happy with hanging out with me when I was miserable but didn't really seem was happy with me when I was happy so and and she also seemed to.

187
00:25:06.030 --> 00:25:14.970
CJ: criticize and demonize my spouse way more than I would have done and I didn't find that helpful at all, so I hung out with people who brought me up rather than down.

188
00:25:15.270 --> 00:25:25.560
CJ: I gave up watching depressing stuff I only watch comedies I don't know whether you've seen that movie by with reese witherspoon called wild I was invited to go and see that.

189
00:25:25.830 --> 00:25:32.160
CJ: And it's supposed to be a great movie but I found out it's all about a woman dealing with depression what she's doing the Pacific CREST.

190
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.780
Morgana and Devin: She was one of my teachers.

191
00:25:34.080 --> 00:25:38.550
Morgana and Devin: Oh cheryl strayed I went to went to antioch university and.

192
00:25:38.820 --> 00:25:40.200
Morgana and Devin: wow um.

193
00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:51.720
CJ: But you know I thought, no, I do not want to see a film about somebody dealing with depression when i'm dealing with stuff that makes me feel depressed so I didn't I didn't do it, I didn't you're.

194
00:25:51.720 --> 00:26:06.630
CJ: kind to yourself yeah and and the other thing that I stopped doing, even though I was a BBC journalist and I covered a lot of news I always used to listen to the news I gave up listening to the news because it's always bad news, you know I mean.

195
00:26:07.620 --> 00:26:17.550
CJ: nothing's happened in your location everything's good everything's fine well that's boring that's not news nobody's going to cover that they'll cover the one shooting or the one murder or.

196
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:25.170
CJ: You know the war over here or whatever it is, and it's just depressing as hell, so I gave up listening to the news.

197
00:26:25.950 --> 00:26:27.210
CJ: And I think that was better.

198
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:28.170
CJ: To do that, for me.

199
00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:28.980
Morgana and Devin: So i'm.

200
00:26:29.850 --> 00:26:34.620
Morgana and Devin: Any favorite movies or TV shows for picking us up.

201
00:26:35.040 --> 00:26:38.100
CJ: Oh well, I mean Monty Python always does that.

202
00:26:38.370 --> 00:26:39.720
CJ: And I do like.

203
00:26:40.110 --> 00:26:59.250
CJ: comedy cyphy there's one that's a British SCI fi comedy that you may or may not know because it's not that available over here it's called red dwarf, and what I like about it is that the the main characters are all completely incompetent and one of them is is is a total arrogant incompetent.

204
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:11.550
CJ: asshole you know and it's very I found it very, very funny and very cleverly written, so I I went for I like that kind of stuff I like snarky humor and.

205
00:27:13.290 --> 00:27:23.850
CJ: Just comedy that that's that that's what I what I found and, of course, all of them Monty Python movies, particularly life of Brian which pay for it, you know you know.

206
00:27:25.530 --> 00:27:26.940
CJ: Very naughty boy.

207
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:38.280
CJ: My favorite so i've always loved loved them and the Monty Python team, and so that that definitely was my.

208
00:27:38.280 --> 00:27:42.060
Morgana and Devin: fat and the undertone of always look on the bright side of life.

209
00:27:42.150 --> 00:27:44.160
Morgana and Devin: Absolutely right.

210
00:27:44.670 --> 00:27:55.800
CJ: yeah and you know, despite the fact that that got an awful lot of flack I mean they were pillorying Brian and not Jesus, so I thought it was good, I really liked that film, I thought it was very, very cleverly done.

211
00:27:55.860 --> 00:28:05.100
Morgana and Devin: I think that if you write comedy and don't get somebody offended then it may not be good comedy.

212
00:28:05.430 --> 00:28:10.080
CJ: that's true absolutely true you've always got to have somebody be in the crosshairs.

213
00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:16.560
Morgana and Devin: And they're they're so smart it's such intellectual comedy and I think that's.

214
00:28:16.770 --> 00:28:18.840
Morgana and Devin: Why it's so timeless.

215
00:28:20.790 --> 00:28:22.020
Morgana and Devin: it's not.

216
00:28:22.590 --> 00:28:37.410
Morgana and Devin: A fad it's like I saw them at the Hollywood bowl when I was 14 I still have my philosopher song poster I mean who writes a comedy song about philosophers that's just weird and that's why I love it.

217
00:28:38.280 --> 00:28:38.730
Morgana and Devin: yeah.

218
00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:56.550
CJ: You can have the summarizing Proust contest to remember that that was funny but I, one of the things that I did was I went to the it was the ot Center in Britain, where they had, I think the last reunion that they probably are going to do, and it was sadly Terry Jones last.

219
00:28:56.730 --> 00:28:58.500
CJ: appearance in public, I believe.

220
00:28:58.770 --> 00:29:06.600
CJ: Before he got that horrible case of of alzheimer's that robbed him of his voice, and I think and then he he died not too long after.

221
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:16.500
CJ: But, but it was great, even though I knew the scripts and even though I knew exactly what they were going to say it was still fantastic, and I was so glad that I did that I stay I.

222
00:29:17.310 --> 00:29:25.920
CJ: Actually, delayed my chemo treatment to be able, because I booked this ticket way back and I delayed my chemo treat treatment, so I can be in England.

223
00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:36.420
CJ: see my boyfriend and go to that show, then I went back to the two I went back to California and had the chemo but I certainly wasn't going to miss that that show.

224
00:29:36.930 --> 00:29:38.670
Morgana and Devin: I heard.

225
00:29:39.810 --> 00:29:49.950
Morgana and Devin: Years ago, some doctors, saying that the power of laughter is so essential for the immune system.

226
00:29:50.130 --> 00:29:54.660
Morgana and Devin: Absolutely, so, if you like, you gave yourself the medicine you needed.

227
00:29:55.350 --> 00:29:59.190
CJ: yeah and they also have that laughter yoga the Indian laughter yoga which.

228
00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:08.910
CJ: I mean I didn't do anything like that, because you're sort of forcing a laugh and that's supposed to but it probably does the same things because I read that there are studies, where.

229
00:30:09.780 --> 00:30:27.000
CJ: Even if you're feeling depressed if you go around smiling it lifts your mood because a good mood makes you smile, but a smile also creates a good mood is very bizarre but So if you sort of feel down and you go around smiling it actually helps lift your spirits.

230
00:30:27.510 --> 00:30:29.970
Morgana and Devin: And maybe because it's a neurological anchor.

231
00:30:30.300 --> 00:30:31.560
CJ: yeah yeah.

232
00:30:31.620 --> 00:30:32.940
Morgana and Devin: very interesting.

233
00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:34.080
CJ: yeah so.

234
00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:38.640
Morgana and Devin: So number one is coffee Johnson mentors number one.

235
00:30:38.790 --> 00:30:48.870
CJ: cultivate existing and new connections to rebuild your friend Community number two laughter therapy number three number four is really important it's.

236
00:30:49.110 --> 00:30:56.880
CJ: loving your body and becoming beautiful, and by that I don't mean you're going to be a supermodel in a couple weeks, I mean you know sleep enough.

237
00:30:57.810 --> 00:31:09.750
CJ: eat well don't eat crap eat well and exercise is really key I found that when I was feeling really down just outdoor exercise would bring my mood up.

238
00:31:10.050 --> 00:31:17.730
CJ: And I remember having a friend who was going through a similar situation with her on faithful partner, and she didn't even want to leave the House and I said.

239
00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:32.520
CJ: you've got if you do one thing go out in nature walk for maybe even 20 minutes in nature, every day you'll feel better and she forced herself to do that, and it did lift her mood there was no question so.

240
00:31:33.030 --> 00:31:39.420
CJ: You know, you need to love it's part of loving yourself if you love yourself, then you look after your body.

241
00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:57.810
CJ: And you it's a shame that that stereotype of a depressed woman who's just been left by her guy is this is this lady lying in bed spooning the ice cream from a tub and watching TV, you know watching show after show after show on TV and feeling depressed because.

242
00:31:57.810 --> 00:31:59.460
Morgana and Devin: Hopefully comedy shows.

243
00:31:59.520 --> 00:32:10.470
CJ: Well yeah but even if you're just lying in bed spooning the ice cream and not moving around and just staying there it's not going to really lift your spirits as much as if you just get out and move.

244
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:23.340
CJ: get out of the House, see people move find some nature to walk around, and I think that's key it's so important and force yourself to do it because you may not want to do it if you're really down in the dumps, but I think that.

245
00:32:23.610 --> 00:32:32.970
CJ: If you force yourself just every day 15 minutes 20 minutes just that will make a difference, so so that's number four.

246
00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:39.780
CJ: number five was to find my passion and become more of a hedonist because.

247
00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:53.040
CJ: A lot of women who are in long term marriages when you've had a business together and rich children together and all of that you end up being you know I had my nose to the grindstone most of the time, I did not make time for myself.

248
00:32:53.910 --> 00:33:05.670
CJ: I realized I hadn't and so you find something you enjoy whatever it is, and do it and I don't mean that you have to give up your day job and see if you can make a living playing the banjo or whatever it is.

249
00:33:06.090 --> 00:33:12.810
CJ: Because you probably won't but make time if the banjo is your passion make time to learn it and play it and enjoy it and.

250
00:33:12.840 --> 00:33:19.080
CJ: Also volunteer if you have some cause that you're really passionate about that's that's absolutely key.

251
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:28.230
Morgana and Devin: What if you use the word hedonism, what is your definition of hedonism because I don't think you're saying we should all just go and join plato's retreat, which was a.

252
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:30.870
Morgana and Devin: Great swing thing and the 17th.

253
00:33:31.050 --> 00:33:50.490
CJ: Right I don't mean I just think that you should be partially hedonistic as an antidote to the sort of In Britain we call it the Protestant ethic I don't know if you're familiar with that term where you just well your work hard to earn a living, and you know notice the.

254
00:33:51.540 --> 00:33:52.830
CJ: stiff upper lip and.

255
00:33:53.340 --> 00:34:00.030
CJ: You know that's how life should be led you know, no, no, make time for yourself to do stuff you enjoy.

256
00:34:01.050 --> 00:34:14.640
CJ: And he did ISM is part of it, because if you allow yourself to be hedonistic rather than thinking oh I shouldn't be doing this, I should really be working I mean I really need to do this, I really need to do that, no, you need to be.

257
00:34:15.330 --> 00:34:31.710
CJ: living a little bit for enjoyment, you know eat something cuz it tastes good and you love it do it do something really silly spend money on clothes, if you really feel if you if you want to that's hedonistic you don't need to spend all your money on on Nice clothing.

258
00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:47.580
CJ: You know yeah he didn't it's I don't mean that you should run down the street naked and give up a normal lifestyle or anything like that, although you could, if you feel like it if that makes you feel better right, you know who knows, but.

259
00:34:48.600 --> 00:35:01.560
CJ: I just think that, in some ways, yes, you should embrace your in a hedonist because most people most women in long term marriages, have not done that, for decades, so I think it's important.

260
00:35:01.950 --> 00:35:04.200
Morgana and Devin: i'm going to pause you for a second cuz.

261
00:35:05.850 --> 00:35:12.060
Morgana and Devin: So it sounds like it's about like finding your love for life again.

262
00:35:12.570 --> 00:35:22.950
Morgana and Devin: area and yeah like I think you talked about in for loving your body, because this is what you've got.

263
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.920
Morgana and Devin: And that so that leads to.

264
00:35:27.030 --> 00:35:36.330
Morgana and Devin: You know, enjoying enjoying the pleasure of life and and kind of everything you're talking about sounds to me like coming alive again.

265
00:35:36.810 --> 00:35:52.800
CJ: Absolutely, and one of the problems with certainly I found it and i'm sure i'm not the only one, is that you sort of supplement your personality in the marriage and in the guy and it sort of squashed and.

266
00:35:53.520 --> 00:36:02.670
CJ: I lost I lost my sense of humor to there was a really ironic comment that he made to me that that brought it to mind my ex actually told me.

267
00:36:04.230 --> 00:36:11.970
CJ: Comparing his girlfriend the mistress to me, he said she's so much more inherently joyful than you.

268
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:13.950
CJ: give her time.

269
00:36:16.620 --> 00:36:18.300
CJ: And, and I realized.

270
00:36:18.450 --> 00:36:33.060
CJ: Yes, that's absolutely true, but the reason is because you squeezed the joy out of me, and I am not that he's an evil man, but that was just what happened that was just the dynamic of our.

271
00:36:34.080 --> 00:36:35.940
CJ: of how our relationship had.

272
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.010
CJ: gone.

273
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:44.040
Morgana and Devin: And losing losing ourselves in a relationship is a young woman thing to do.

274
00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:58.680
Morgana and Devin: Like yes, I did it and you know every once in a while there's some amazing woman who gets it early and I wasn't her and you weren't her and we right.

275
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:04.440
Morgana and Devin: yeah so, but now you get to be your amazing self.

276
00:37:04.590 --> 00:37:13.260
CJ: that's right and it's funny because when we separated my my ex and I, and I went to see some old friends of mine in London.

277
00:37:13.740 --> 00:37:27.120
CJ: And they said oh wow it's like we've got the old cj back because I was you know laughing and having a good time and making jokes and it was just different I wasn't just constantly.

278
00:37:27.870 --> 00:37:47.280
CJ: You know, talking about stuff to do with him and just not very forthcoming with anything about me so so yeah it's it's really common you've got to get your personality back you've got to make sure you're you, and not just an appendage of somebody else.

279
00:37:51.270 --> 00:38:01.620
Morgana and Devin: And I would also say it's it's not really your fault, you were raised, we were all raised with TV and movies and culture telling us to be a good wife.

280
00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:03.570
CJ: Right, it was yeah.

281
00:38:03.630 --> 00:38:16.470
CJ: That was part of the stereotype and then the final thing that I had in my plan was to do with the fact that the past is gone the future doesn't exist so.

282
00:38:17.130 --> 00:38:26.010
CJ: I wanted to stop myself churning about what happened in the past, well, if I had done it this way, maybe it would have been different, and why didn't I do that, and all of that and.

283
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:34.230
CJ: Oh now what am I going to do and how are things going to turn out and what am I going to live on and and how's it going to be and where, am I going to live and.

284
00:38:34.710 --> 00:38:39.420
CJ: I didn't want to be churning because all you have is now.

285
00:38:40.020 --> 00:38:50.010
CJ: You really have nothing but now, so I worked at trying to live in the present and become more mindful and that's much harder than it sounds that's probably the hardest of the.

286
00:38:50.670 --> 00:38:56.040
CJ: Six things but very, very important, because if all you're doing is is.

287
00:38:56.790 --> 00:39:07.410
CJ: running the problems of the past in your head or worrying about the future, you really aren't living your sort of existing you're not living because you're not really present.

288
00:39:07.770 --> 00:39:23.520
CJ: In what is right in front of your nose and so many people live like that, even if they've never had a cheating partner it's it's a common problem, and I wanted to try to get out of that because you know here you are in a gorgeous place.

289
00:39:24.720 --> 00:39:37.710
CJ: And you're not even enjoying it, because your mind is full of other stuff you're not thinking about a whole wow this is beautiful know you're worrying about something else it's a shame it's not not how life should be lived.

290
00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:56.100
Morgana and Devin: You gave an example because you work with women I and maybe men too because men get betrayed and left to right, but you had an example of a client who had a very dramatic response to betrayal do you want to share that.

291
00:39:56.790 --> 00:40:07.260
CJ: yeah I heard about a man who was so angry with his wife, for being unfaithful that he filled her car with concrete, he was a contractor.

292
00:40:07.680 --> 00:40:15.840
CJ: And you know, everybody laughs when I tell that story, it does make you chuckle but where do you go from there, you know it's not.

293
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:27.480
CJ: A situation where you're going to be able to have a good reconciliation it's going to be a situation instead where you're going to have an expensive acrimonious divorce and you'll be in.

294
00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:38.160
CJ: a space where, for example, even if you want to discuss things like custody of the children, how do you do that, after after having that kind of example.

295
00:40:39.540 --> 00:40:49.530
CJ: There you know and what kind of role model you seeming to be when to your children when you're treating their wife or their mother like that, so you know.

296
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:57.810
CJ: There are all these wonderful revenge strategies that sound really great when you hear about them, I heard it the other way around, where the wife was so pissed off.

297
00:40:58.080 --> 00:41:07.350
CJ: With a husband, for having an affair, with his Secretary that while he was at work she sold his prized sports car for $10 on craigslist.

298
00:41:09.090 --> 00:41:15.180
CJ: You know I mean, but then, if they were going to get divorced, that would have been part of the.

299
00:41:15.510 --> 00:41:21.360
CJ: amount of the assets that they would have divided so she was actually cutting off your nose to spite your face with that connection.

300
00:41:21.660 --> 00:41:33.930
CJ: So you know people don't really think when you've got that emotional rollercoaster going and your event driven you start having behavior and actions that really do not serve you.

301
00:41:34.290 --> 00:41:37.800
CJ: And so, one, let me just say one of the things that I had to.

302
00:41:38.310 --> 00:41:54.330
CJ: had to do when I was going through this when I was in that sort of roller coaster period I had to whatever I wanted to do, I had to stop and first ask myself is this serving my own long term best interests, because that really is the most important thing.

303
00:41:55.470 --> 00:42:02.220
Morgana and Devin: very smart and it's so funny that your two stories are about cars, because you were just talking about moving forward.

304
00:42:02.640 --> 00:42:04.200
Morgana and Devin: Right and you.

305
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:06.360
Morgana and Devin: can't when you're moving.

306
00:42:07.410 --> 00:42:07.980
Morgana and Devin: yeah.

307
00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:14.160
Morgana and Devin: How I just remember in my.

308
00:42:14.520 --> 00:42:15.240
Morgana and Devin: i'm sorry go ahead.

309
00:42:15.750 --> 00:42:28.530
CJ: yeah I was just saying you know, the only people that gained from that all the divorce, lawyers and they love it catching the more disagreements, the more bad behavior you know, the more money, the lawyers make in the divorce.

310
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:38.400
Morgana and Devin: yeah absolutely um you know I just remember having it and I did a lot of the things my last breakup that I went through.

311
00:42:39.060 --> 00:42:47.640
Morgana and Devin: I did most of the things that you talked about I kind of you know, quite literally, there was a point where she's like okay i'm i'm leaving.

312
00:42:48.390 --> 00:43:03.960
Morgana and Devin: And there was a point like right after that, where it was like there's you know I tried everything every kind of conversation, and she was like Well, no, and so, at some point, it was just no and I remember her standing up and saying, can I have a hug.

313
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:21.000
Morgana and Devin: And I remember thinking to myself, no, I want to punch you in your face and then, of course, I remember hearing a friend of mines voice in my head, who said, you know if you love somebody you want what they want, even if it's not you.

314
00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:22.740
Morgana and Devin: When.

315
00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:34.770
Morgana and Devin: And so I hugged her and then she walked down the this we had at the time we had a long hallway and she was kind of pulling the suitcases the rolling suitcases down the hallway.

316
00:43:35.190 --> 00:43:41.820
Morgana and Devin: And you know the same voice popped in my head, because you know, a gentleman would help her with their suitcases.

317
00:43:42.720 --> 00:43:54.450
Morgana and Devin: And that's what I did I thought, let me grab those and I walked her to the car she popped the trunk I threw I put the you know the suitcases in and she drove away and that was literally, the last time I saw her now.

318
00:43:54.570 --> 00:43:58.290
Morgana and Devin: wow it's been you know, certainly a decade.

319
00:43:58.620 --> 00:43:58.770
Morgana and Devin: Did.

320
00:43:59.010 --> 00:44:00.090
CJ: It for somebody else.

321
00:44:00.930 --> 00:44:16.020
Morgana and Devin: Well here's the thing I don't know because part of the conversations that I had with because I initially spoke with men who were very much like hey have you have you made your bed no go make your bed and give me a call and I go make the bed, have you did you do your dishes no.

322
00:44:17.520 --> 00:44:20.760
Morgana and Devin: Go do your dishes give me a call and then said well i'll come get you will go for coffee.

323
00:44:21.600 --> 00:44:29.970
Morgana and Devin: And then we do that, and probably about a month in I started speaking to sort of like the women and the women were great because.

324
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:38.730
Morgana and Devin: You know men were very pragmatic and very logical about the stuff and like Okay, did you pay your bills and that kind of thing and women were like she's a bitch.

325
00:44:38.850 --> 00:44:42.150
Morgana and Devin: Where does she live i'm going to go over there and kick her ass.

326
00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:46.140
CJ: God that was use, I mean in many ways that's.

327
00:44:46.140 --> 00:44:50.640
CJ: kind of not helpful, I will do is it, but what I would say is.

328
00:44:50.790 --> 00:45:00.960
Morgana and Devin: Is there was a point when I had to start communicating because she had more things at the House and things like that, and the women were like I hate her she's a bitch and then I write a letter.

329
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:05.880
Morgana and Devin: To like they'd say well when you're going to reach out to her show me the letter.

330
00:45:06.630 --> 00:45:16.920
Morgana and Devin: And then I would write the letter and they would you know i'd hear back, is it yeah that's your letter is right on you're not going to send that letter you can say, Thursday, at three is good.

331
00:45:17.430 --> 00:45:27.960
Morgana and Devin: You know, and things like that, like we kept it straight to, and so, while it wasn't probably in the big picture useful in the litter, in the little picture.

332
00:45:28.680 --> 00:45:33.690
Morgana and Devin: It was what I needed on that emotional support you, we love you on that level.

333
00:45:34.020 --> 00:45:45.690
Morgana and Devin: On that level and, when it came down to sort of like here's my opportunity to punish her through a letter they were not going to have any of it that's why they kept it like okay yeah Thursday three is fine thanks.

334
00:45:46.290 --> 00:45:55.500
CJ: Right yeah I mean and that's what you need you need good friends who can help you through and there's no substitute for that you should.

335
00:45:55.980 --> 00:45:58.920
Morgana and Devin: We met six months later wow.

336
00:45:59.130 --> 00:46:00.300
CJ: We met six months later.

337
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:02.400
CJ: This lady did you a favor morgana.

338
00:46:03.930 --> 00:46:12.810
Morgana and Devin: I am by existing yeah well, of course, I mean at some point, you know a lot of the conversations i've actually had and i'm sure you probably had similar conversations.

339
00:46:13.110 --> 00:46:25.860
Morgana and Devin: Is that it really doesn't matter what the other person's doing, I have to live with my own future behavior with inside of the relationship, and if the relationship doesn't work out i'm practicing for the next relationship.

340
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:28.140
Morgana and Devin: Because, ultimately, I.

341
00:46:28.170 --> 00:46:32.220
Morgana and Devin: want to be part of a partnership now, I have to work at it and maintain it and.

342
00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:47.190
Morgana and Devin: You know, be loving and all those kinds of things and, if I have a bunch of feelings that I have to you know, I have to start discussing them with my wife, I mean for the most part, we have a very open, honest relationship, but it's not open as in seeing other P, no not.

343
00:46:48.210 --> 00:46:50.340
Morgana and Devin: be abundantly clear.

344
00:46:50.430 --> 00:46:52.560
Morgana and Devin: yeah it was not part of the opening.

345
00:46:53.910 --> 00:46:54.810
Morgana and Devin: Part of our thing.

346
00:46:55.170 --> 00:47:00.690
CJ: I think most people aren't gonna have that work it doesn't work that well, and certainly not for women.

347
00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:09.450
Morgana and Devin: I don't think I really don't think it really works for anything I mean actually a woman, that a fellow writer that I know wrote a book.

348
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:14.850
Morgana and Devin: called open it was about her successful long term.

349
00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:26.160
Morgana and Devin: Open relationship and as more was revealed after the book became very popular here, and she appeared on all of these shows it really turned out that.

350
00:47:27.240 --> 00:47:43.230
Morgana and Devin: That her relationship, in other words the husband like she was good, with the open relationship, the husband, on the other hand, was absolutely not okay and went with it for as long as he could until it was like Okay, good luck and.

351
00:47:43.290 --> 00:47:44.520
Morgana and Devin: I relations relationship which is.

352
00:47:44.730 --> 00:47:51.570
CJ: me yeah one person wants to do it the other person is doing it in order to keep the.

353
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:54.180
Morgana and Devin: The other person happy right.

354
00:47:54.210 --> 00:48:02.910
CJ: yeah because otherwise it's either I put up with this or I have to not be with this person, and I would rather be with this person and not be with this person.

355
00:48:03.180 --> 00:48:12.420
CJ: But if you ask them would you rather be with this person without the open relationship, more often than not they're going to say oh God, yes, I do not really want an open relationship.

356
00:48:12.810 --> 00:48:28.230
CJ: And it's funny because, in my adulterous wife book i've got a cartoon i've had plenty of cartoons in there, but one cartoon is called group sex and it's two people having sex you can't actually see anybody part so it's it's moderately clean.

357
00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:29.790
Morgana and Devin: Okay PG 13.

358
00:48:29.850 --> 00:48:36.990
CJ: PG 13 but you know adultery and infidelity is about sex, so you have to talk about it, you can't not talk about it in a book about adultery and and.

359
00:48:37.770 --> 00:48:48.180
CJ: But anyway, so these two people having sex and you've got these thought bubbles, and both of them are thinking about other people and the the heading again of that cartoon is group sex.

360
00:48:48.570 --> 00:48:56.880
CJ: And the thing is it's very hard to be fully present to the person that you're making love with if you are.

361
00:48:57.420 --> 00:49:13.650
CJ: Really spending a lot of time making love to other people I just don't think you can be fully present and if you're not fully present it's more like having sex than making love that's just the way it is and that's my view, some people might disagree, but that's my view.

362
00:49:14.490 --> 00:49:28.140
Morgana and Devin: Well, I mean, I think I think the joy of all this is that if we keep having these kinds of conversations because, because the imperfection of humanity will persist, do you know what I mean no matter what, no matter what we say or do.

363
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:33.420
Morgana and Devin: there's going to be some sort of an office thing there's going to be, you know what I mean there's just.

364
00:49:33.810 --> 00:49:35.250
CJ: So many reasons.

365
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:35.550
CJ: yeah.

366
00:49:35.610 --> 00:49:46.950
Morgana and Devin: For so many reasons but, more importantly, the more we become conscious of our choices or decisions, the more likely we are at not to repeat those kinds of mistakes.

367
00:49:47.010 --> 00:49:51.300
Morgana and Devin: Right and put our selves through the trauma or put somebody else to the trauma.

368
00:49:52.050 --> 00:50:07.020
CJ: One of the problems, though, in terms of the increased amount of infidelity that's happening now is simply longevity as we live longer and also now that we have these ED drugs, so that a guy can keep bonking until he kicks the bucket.

369
00:50:07.020 --> 00:50:07.710
Basically.

370
00:50:09.090 --> 00:50:16.410
CJ: You know, it opens the door for more infidelity and it also opens the door for more dissatisfaction within a marriage.

371
00:50:16.620 --> 00:50:24.750
CJ: Because obviously you know if there are imperfections in a marriage, the longer that marriage the marriage goes on for the more glaring those imperfections may be.

372
00:50:24.990 --> 00:50:40.080
CJ: And the more temptations there may be to to stray and be with other partners so so that's something that maybe is is more from art for our era of a more longevity and the drugs, as I said then say it was in the 1950s.

373
00:50:41.430 --> 00:50:41.850
CJ: era.

374
00:50:42.360 --> 00:51:04.980
Morgana and Devin: Sure that's interesting I hadn't thought of that in my family everybody gets it much better on the second go round, so my grandmother got remarried when she was in her 40s and they were passionately in love till the day she died when she was roughly 9192 nobody's really quite circle.

375
00:51:08.700 --> 00:51:22.020
Morgana and Devin: because she chose the right person they drove each other crazy, but they were more in love than annoyed so and they just did whatever it took to make it work out um.

376
00:51:22.650 --> 00:51:32.310
Morgana and Devin: that's really interesting though, about the longevity because yeah people used to date 42 it's a lot easier to you know, have one job in one relationship.

377
00:51:34.200 --> 00:51:41.220
CJ: And the sex stopped you know guys would no longer It reminds me of the very first one of the very first interviews I did for the.

378
00:51:41.520 --> 00:51:44.340
Morgana and Devin: Oral sex didn't start my grandmother would say.

379
00:51:44.430 --> 00:51:56.490
CJ: Oh well, that's that's true yeah, that is true, but I was just gonna say, one of the very first interviews I did for the BBC I was I interviewed a stripper who was doing a show in the area that I was based.

380
00:51:57.600 --> 00:52:00.390
CJ: I thought she was going to be interesting, but she wasn't that interesting.

381
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:08.190
CJ: She just told me about all the guys that she was having sex with and all of this and I went to I went to the show I just saw the first half.

382
00:52:08.640 --> 00:52:19.440
CJ: And there was this old guy next to me, and this was in Bristol where they have a very thick sort of long john silver type accident and he goes to me, he says Oh, you only come zero because I can't get it up, no longer you know.

383
00:52:20.850 --> 00:52:34.350
CJ: Of course, it was the days before by agra so so you know I mean that was what what those guys did, but they weren't out there having sex with other people, they were just maybe you know going to a strip show or something like that.

384
00:52:35.430 --> 00:52:57.930
Morgana and Devin: So we're we're getting close to the end of our time, do you have any advice on how to make the relationship continue to work with these newer challenges like longevity Internet the blue pill, do you have any tips.

385
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:13.890
CJ: I think it is really to do with how complete you feel on your own and how complete your partner feels on his own because I think the more individual dysfunction there is, the more you have problems.

386
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:20.220
CJ: I would say it's the same kind of thing that I said in the six part plan.

387
00:53:20.970 --> 00:53:29.520
CJ: Having your own friends being able to love being able to love with your partner that's very important having a great sense of humor together.

388
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:53.580
CJ: living in the present enjoying things together, enjoying the outdoors together and trying to read to make your passion stay passionate you do have to work at that, but it is doable you make dates, you have to think about being romantic and not just let sex happen, you need to sort of.

389
00:53:54.930 --> 00:54:03.240
CJ: create a sense of celebration around around sex and being together and then you'll find that the spark continues.

390
00:54:04.200 --> 00:54:16.830
CJ: You sort of almost have to say okay we're not going to talk about taxes we're not going to talk about repairing the House we're going to talk about us and our wonderful relationship, you know in bed and have fun.

391
00:54:17.070 --> 00:54:19.980
CJ: You know, take away the things that are passion killers.

392
00:54:20.520 --> 00:54:28.830
CJ: From the time that you are putting into having a passionate relationship together, you do have to work at it, because it's very easy.

393
00:54:29.070 --> 00:54:40.980
CJ: To get stuck into a sort of mundane existence and let passion dissolve and that's a shame, because we can all we can all make it survive and life is so much better with passion.

394
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:46.110
Morgana and Devin: I agree with you 100% that's why we're getting married 100 times in 100 countries.

395
00:54:46.200 --> 00:54:48.000
CJ: Right, I think that's so romantic.

396
00:54:48.030 --> 00:54:49.590
CJ: You know it's just great.

397
00:54:50.130 --> 00:54:51.270
Morgana and Devin: Thank you so.

398
00:54:52.680 --> 00:55:13.800
Morgana and Devin: cj grace is the author of adulterers wife, how to thrive, whether you stay or not her mantra is the best revenge is to get past the need for it, I love that, and you can learn more by visiting adulterers wife.com is that where we would find your six steps to go deeper.

399
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:25.620
CJ: that's right, and I also have a free mini ebook called overcoming and fidelity tools to tame the roller coaster of negative emotions and there's a little button on my homepage where you can click and get hold of that.

400
00:55:26.010 --> 00:55:32.070
CJ: And if you can't spell adulterous wife.com because actually in retrospect it's a terrible name for website.

401
00:55:32.790 --> 00:55:43.950
CJ: there's also a there's a porn site that is spelt differently, that means the opposite that's a you know adulterous wife in the way I spell it is the wife of somebody who has been committing.

402
00:55:44.010 --> 00:55:45.330
Morgana and Devin: adultery, we will I.

403
00:55:45.330 --> 00:55:46.950
CJ: promise we have the.

404
00:55:47.910 --> 00:55:49.200
Morgana and Devin: link and the correct.

405
00:55:49.200 --> 00:55:51.870
Morgana and Devin: spelling in the show notes.

406
00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:52.620
CJ: And you.

407
00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:53.670
Morgana and Devin: Know give you a link.

408
00:55:54.210 --> 00:55:58.920
CJ: To again direct link for the the free mini ebook and.

409
00:55:59.130 --> 00:56:01.950
Morgana and Devin: That into Google, my name is cj grace.

410
00:56:02.010 --> 00:56:08.490
CJ: you'll find me, and you can find me on clubhouse where i've got an overgrowth overcoming infidelity club, and I do.

411
00:56:09.030 --> 00:56:21.570
CJ: presentations there so so just Google cj grace or cj grace infidelity don't worry about not being able to spell adulterous wife and you'll find me I do also have a second website rent a Brit calm, which I do.

412
00:56:22.770 --> 00:56:26.940
CJ: voiceovers and British blogs and and sort of prototype.

413
00:56:26.970 --> 00:56:28.380
Morgana and Devin: You did a very.

414
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:30.360
Morgana and Devin: spot on Monty Python.

415
00:56:30.720 --> 00:56:31.560
Morgana and Devin: Oh yes.

416
00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:35.190
Morgana and Devin: Okay excellent Thank you so much cj.

417
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:41.280
CJ: All right, well it's been a real pleasure to to chat with you both Thank you very much for inviting me to be a guest.